[0.5] Create the perfect vibe in your retail store network and boost your bottom right.
[7.9] Welcome to activeinstore.com, your very own branded radio station designed just for your
[13.8] retail space.
[15.7] Research tells us that 83% of sales transactions happen in store and 84% of people say that
[21.8] they feel happier and more relaxed listening to music that they enjoy.
[26.9] branded radio station with call to action messaging has a direct influence on purchasing decisions.
[32.6] Now that's gotta be a positive.
[35.7] With customized playlists, real-time promotions and on branding messaging, active in-store
[40.9] helps you engage customers and drive sales.
[43.7] Let's face it, it's a better vibe in store for customers to hear familiar, enjoyable music
[48.7] while they browse.
[50.1] And importantly, your staff will appreciate it.
[53.6] We take care of everything so you can focus on growing your business.
[57.6] Visit activeinstall.com to find out more.
[60.6] I am a serial entrepreneur and I've built five businesses over the last 25 years.
[68.1] I also believe that life is not linear and our lives are all full of twists and turns
[74.1] to teach us who we really are and give us power in this world.
[78.1] I believe integrity, connection and curiosity are my main values in life, those three things.
[86.5] And I'm happy as I think when I'm creating something meaningful surrounding myself with really good people.
[99.8] I'm Jai Gillard and welcome to the Power of Women podcast.
[104.2] And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience, and achievement of women from all walks of life.
[114.2] And this is where real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume.
[120.2] We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs, and the moments that often don't make the headlines,
[127.3] but should. So join the conversation and subscribe please wherever you listen to your podcast
[133.4] because that helps us amplify the message out there and be part of the power of women community.
[138.9] Have you ever thought about starting your own business?
[145.0] Today's conversation is with Mandy Gundberger, five-time founder, visionary dealmaker and
[151.6] powerhouse behind babyology and nourish travel.
[155.2] We're going to talk about the real cost of entrepreneurship, which includes burnout, identity
[161.4] and the pressure of holding it all together whilst building something truly extraordinary.
[168.1] It's a fast-paced masterclass in business growth, connection and the power of vulnerability.
[174.9] Mandy Gunsberger, welcome to the power of women podcast.
[179.2] Thanks so much for having me, Diane.
[180.9] I'm so excited to be here today and share all the good about and a lot of the ugly about
[187.2] building businesses and what that entails.
[190.4] So let the masterclass begin.
[192.5] Look, I don't even know where to start because there's a lot with it, Mandy, but you've
[196.6] built five businesses.
[198.0] The race redorters you successfully sold on Australia's largest parent media company which
[204.4] was babyology.
[206.4] Where does your entrepreneurial spirit come from?
[209.2] Yeah, that's an interesting question to start with.
[212.6] And I'd have to say number one, it would be my dad.
[215.8] He was 100% my person.
[218.8] And he was a very different type of entrepreneur, I suppose, in the 70s and the 80s.
[223.1] He was an entrepreneur for necessary really.
[226.4] And to put food on the table versus what a lot of us do now.
[230.2] So, you know, he owned a record company.
[232.9] He was a jewelry salesman.
[234.8] He was a clown at kids birthday parties.
[238.3] I remember at the age of five going on newspaper runs with him at 5 a.m. where you'd
[242.3] throw the newspaper out the car and it would end up in someone's front garden.
[246.0] So, you know, he was always hustling just for the next dollar to be able to feed us, you
[251.8] very middle class that I grew up in.
[255.4] And so he had to do that.
[256.7] But I feel like I've always hustled from a young age as well.
[260.5] I used to, I don't know if that's a hustle really.
[263.8] I used to steal money from the bank in Monopoly
[265.9] when I used to play that with my sister.
[267.6] That's that's more illegal than a hustle.
[269.7] Not a bit.
[270.5] But yeah, but not be hustle.
[272.2] No, but I wouldn't have an auction in our room every week
[275.6] when we were kids.
[276.3] And she was older than me.
[277.3] And I would auction off both our toys to her
[279.5] and try and make a few bucks until Mum found out what was going on.
[283.4] But really, from the age of 13, I worked in hairdressing salons.
[287.2] I worked in a bakery, you know, from 5 a.m. I used to work in cafes or stock shelves at the
[293.6] supermarket. So I was always looking, you know, selling local cookies in the area and things like
[299.2] that. So I think that's when it all started for me, you know, in my teenage years. And then
[304.3] and moving over to San Francisco in my early 20s was just so incredibly eye-opening.
[310.3] It was the dot com era.
[311.8] Tell us about that.
[312.8] What did you do?
[313.8] It was crazy.
[314.8] So I was able to somehow wangle myself a work visa, which is very hard to do from Australia
[319.6] to America.
[320.7] But I just finished uni.
[321.7] I was 22 years old.
[323.2] I moved over with my boyfriend and I worked in hotels.
[326.6] I worked in the Hilton Hyatt and Intercontinental Hotels, which was a crazy world to be in
[331.9] And I think I managed to get there because it was .com era.
[335.4] So, you know, a lot of regular people leaving regular jobs in the Bay Area to go for the
[340.2] .com where you'd go canoeing on a Friday and there'd be fizzball in the break rooms and
[346.2] all that stuff.
[347.2] So it was actually good time for me to wangle my way in and to see it on very Google
[351.5] Mandy.
[352.5] It was very Google.
[353.5] It was when all of that was just starting to happen.
[356.2] And you know, you'd see 22 year olds over there driving a Ferrari ordering a burger with
[360.8] $600 bottle of wine from Napa. So I think I just really was like wow that's really impressive.
[367.3] So when we meet back from San Francisco when I was 2425 I really had that entrepreneurial spirit in me.
[374.8] Yeah wow great story. So with that in mind what what fuels you more is it is it the buzz of
[382.1] creating and scaling a business or is it the satisfaction of seeing the successful exit?
[387.6] Oh gosh, 100% they're creating the business every single time.
[392.2] I think the buzz is coming up with an idea acting on us, working bloody hard for many years.
[399.2] They're not overnight successes by all men and turning it into something profitable that comes
[404.0] from that idea is just so rewarding.
[406.7] I mean, if you're in it just for the exit in Australia, I think now they're 10% of startups
[412.4] you know, fail within the first year and 70% fail within those next two to five years.
[419.0] So if you're in it to be at that exit, you know, 90%, it's not going to happen.
[424.0] I think even higher if you're a woman to be honest.
[426.5] So a successful exit, while it is pure gold, it's incredibly unlikely that you have
[432.6] that successful exit.
[434.5] So you've really got to love the build.
[436.2] You've got to love the drive.
[437.4] You've got to love working every second of every day to build something that you believe
[442.0] in. And I think, um, yeah, one of my incredible mentors, Jane Huxley, way back when actually
[448.8] taught me a very early, how you go into a new business idea while planning your exit. So it
[454.4] might never happen. But I think it's worth thinking about when you build, like what you want
[459.7] it to look like. Do you want it to be a lifestyle business? Do you want to sell out of it? Do you
[464.6] want to stay on when someone buys it, you know, all those questions? Because I think that really
[470.3] effects the way you build it. You know, determining how you set it up if you take funding,
[477.2] who you take funding from along the way. So it does affect the funnel. I come, so I do now when
[482.3] I launch something these days I do work backwards as to what does this look like in 10, 15, 20 years.
[488.8] Because that does really affect the way you run it. But absolutely hands down. I love the
[493.3] build. I love getting that first sale. I love, you know, when profit actually exceeds what it
[498.8] what it should be, what you thought it would be.
[501.2] Yeah, it's never about the exit,
[503.5] although it's obviously very exciting.
[505.2] I did have one big exit,
[506.4] but again, five businesses, one exit.
[508.4] So yeah, it doesn't happen all the time.
[510.7] But that hustle is what you develop as a key.
[513.8] Oh, absolutely.
[514.6] That's the key trading off your toys in the bedroom.
[517.8] And especially for someone who had me,
[519.1] where all my businesses are not in a specific area,
[521.7] it's literally sitting there and going,
[523.8] oh, someone else is not doing this.
[525.6] So for instance, coming back from San Francisco
[528.0] and being obsessed with those triangular scones
[531.1] that they had at Starbucks at the time
[533.1] and thinking, I'm gonna be an ex-iron,
[535.2] they cookie company because that's not here yet.
[537.5] So it's any idea I come up with,
[540.0] I just launched myself into and see where it goes.
[543.1] Yeah, and that's a great vision reminder
[545.8] to read what's going on in the market pace
[548.6] and be curious and I love that actually.
[551.3] Yeah, absolutely.
[552.3] It's about seeing what's not around
[554.3] and then actually discovering why it's not around.
[556.3] maybe there's a very good reason no one else has gone up against that company, but if there's
[560.5] not, you just think, well, if I don't do it, someone else might do it.
[563.6] So you've developed a reputation as a relationship, Nimjur and visionary deal maker.
[570.4] How did those tags come about?
[572.6] Look, I think I've always been a people person from a very young age, right from a child
[579.2] and then moving into hospitality as my first career as well led me to understand and
[585.6] know a lot about people. And I think when I look at that and the way partnerships work,
[591.3] I look at partnerships as being a lot like great relationships. So they're really about
[596.2] the people behind them and building those connections rather than the paperwork and what
[602.3] goes into it. I think for me, trust and respect is a big one. So actually finding people
[607.8] who care about each other's success is huge in this space. Having shared values is another
[614.7] be one, it's not just about the goals, it's about alignment with one another. And on
[620.6] us communication often when you meet people or you're trying to work on partnerships, you know,
[626.1] it's not working out and it's about having those difficult conversations or working
[629.7] out how to pivot or going your own way at an early stage and realizing it wasn't meant
[634.3] to be, that's very important rather than holding onto something for, you know, much longer
[639.1] than you should have because you think it should work out. So for me it's always been about
[644.5] real connection with people, 100%. So any deal, any partnership, anyone I've ever worked with
[650.6] has started with a genuine chance rather than necessarily a pitch. And you know a great example
[657.5] I think of with something like that is a dear friend of mine, Rob Ann to love who's actually an
[663.9] incredible M&A advisor. He was and he still is. And when I was building
[669.2] Babyology, Rob probably after two years, you know, approached me or I met him
[673.8] through a friend of mine and we had a coffee and I was nowhere near any type of
[677.7] M&A except whatever and this is what he does. But I think probably for the next
[682.2] six or seven years I would have a coffee or chapter Rob every year or every
[687.0] 18 months and just ask for his advice and he'd give it out to me. You know, with
[691.2] no idea that when it came to what I would approach him and I'd actually met other advisors
[696.2] through the journey and work with them for a while. But when it came to me raising money at the end
[701.8] and selling the business and who I wanted by my side, hands down it was robbed because I'd built
[707.0] that trust with him and he's given me all that knowledge over those years and I mean that was
[712.2] a brilliant experience for me and for him and since then I think I've introduced him to 15 to 20
[716.9] other entrepreneurial friends who he's given advice to over the years.
[721.4] Some of them he sold their businesses. Some of them he hasn't.
[724.0] But I look at that as a real pinnacle for what relationships and partnerships
[728.8] out there are. Is that whole, you know, you stand by someone for years.
[732.5] You don't know if it's ever going to go anywhere. But when the time comes,
[736.0] you know, in my go somewhere and then it's a win for everyone.
[739.3] So yeah, he's been a huge influence in my life. Yeah.
[742.8] No, it's a musical guy.
[744.1] And I agree. I think partnerships are so hard.
[747.2] I've worked for individuals who've been probably the longest-standing partners in the
[752.9] search and recruitment world.
[754.8] And it's admirable because it's not easy to choose partners.
[760.4] I've gone into business with people before and I've looked to go into business with people
[765.0] for and read the, you know, seen the red flag just before we've signed on the dotted
[771.0] line.
[772.0] I approached it really like a marriage because it's much easier to call it before you get
[778.7] marriage than married than trying to unbundle it once you marry.
[782.1] And a lot of people don't get to it.
[783.9] A lot of people find out after the time that it's not a good fit with some moments.
[788.8] And it really is you spend more time than your business partner than you do with your
[791.8] actual partner if you're in business.
[793.6] And one thing I've always done is I've never had a business with other people that, you
[798.6] know, partnership with them.
[800.2] just isn't my style. I don't think I like to make decisions very quickly and you can't often do that when you've got two or three founders.
[808.1] Well, when you've got to buy in, I know I was in business with somebody who always used to say it a bit and I loved them dearly and they're a friend but they, I'm like you, I'm a quick decision maker and they always say I need to think about it overnight.
[821.4] No, I've got...
[822.3] Aah!
[823.1] Ha ha ha ha!
[824.8] Exactly.
[825.7] And that's what I mean.
[826.7] Yes, I don't know.
[827.7] No, no.
[828.7] Sometimes you need those people to slow you down
[830.8] because I don't always make the right decision.
[832.6] Well, and they weren't too, it are often right.
[835.5] I often stop me jumping into the deep end too soon.
[839.5] No, absolutely.
[840.4] But I also find that that is hard to get slowed down.
[843.9] Like board work is a great example of where everything
[847.2] is very slowly on boards.
[849.0] And I'm like, we've got the meeting now.
[852.0] Why don't we all just say, yes, why are we tabling it
[854.2] for the next three months of meeting?
[855.5] I just don't understand how that works.
[858.6] Have you had advisory boards around your business, is Mandy?
[862.8] I have, I've had advisory boards, but never actual boards,
[865.8] which I think is for that reason.
[867.3] So I've always employed advisors or paid advisors
[870.4] or given them equity, but I haven't had a full,
[873.6] any D board experience around me.
[875.9] I've been in any D, but I haven't had them
[878.6] on my board because I just don't think that's a way that I work very well with
[882.0] seven other people telling me like this is what we want to do and we want to go
[885.6] back and we want to review this I'd be like I'm I'm already halfway there so
[889.3] yeah keep your one of these people are tired to keep pace with so yeah I can see
[893.9] that yeah we'll get to that afterwards it's not always the best way we'll
[899.5] yeah so when you're networking Mandy when you walk into a room of people do you
[908.2] Do you know, do you scope out and know who you're going to connect with? How do you approach it?
[913.1] I do, I think. And to be honest, as I get older, big groups of people and big conferences
[918.5] and big events is not necessarily my thing. I much prefer going to a dinner with 10 people
[923.9] or those smaller groups where you really can connect. But for me, I think it's never about networking.
[930.4] It's more about the connection. And I'm drawn to people who are authentic,
[934.7] who are curious, as I said before, and who aren't very performative. So a lot of it, and I know it sounds crazy, but it does come down to gut instinct or that red flag, as you were talking about. I've always been very good at reading people and I can read someone within five minutes, which might not be very fair, but I really can read them instantly and can usually tell if someone's energy values and just feeling a lines with mine.
[962.7] And I think it comes down to like,
[964.6] if that conversation feels real and curious,
[968.1] I will lean into it,
[969.6] but if it's very one-sided and all about their wins
[972.2] and all about what they've achieved,
[974.2] or if they're distracted looking over my shoulder,
[976.2] it who else is in the room,
[977.2] I know that they're probably not my vibe
[980.1] and I tend to stay away from people like that.
[983.3] And I think I've also,
[984.7] I've just got no time for small talk.
[986.6] I don't wanna talk about where you're going on holidays,
[989.2] your kids, the weather,
[990.5] like anything like that. I want to have real honest conversations about ideas and what
[996.2] drives people. So I think you can really make up your mind within a few minutes. What
[1002.8] someone's going to be like and you get that, oh my god, we're very similar or this
[1008.2] is not a conversation that's going to be a deep thoughtful instance.
[1012.2] Yeah, you've kind of described how my philosophy on life, I mean, going to an opening
[1019.3] of the ventias I would rather stab myself in the eye with pen.
[1023.8] And I think that turn networking is almost a dirty word.
[1027.8] You talked about collaborating and finding connection.
[1031.4] Yeah.
[1032.4] Much more appealing.
[1033.4] Exactly.
[1034.4] Collaboration is where it's all that, I think.
[1036.4] And to give you an example, I recently did a retreat with 25 women in the Gold Coast, which
[1040.6] was incredible.
[1042.1] Lee Sales was the host.
[1043.6] She's incredible.
[1045.0] And they all came away.
[1046.2] All these women said they've made lifelong friends.
[1049.2] There are people they never thought they'd meet, but they actually didn't still at the end of their treatment knew what those other people did for a living.
[1056.2] Because I think, you know, that whole, what do you do? Where are you from? Where did you go to school? It's all from the past.
[1062.2] You can have such a real conversation with someone about the fact that I don't know.
[1067.2] You've got a deaf person in your family and they've got a deaf person in their family and you bond over something really real.
[1073.2] And you don't actually know what they did, but you know you want to be part of their world.
[1077.2] I found that really interesting that women can come away these days and not know if they're
[1081.4] a lawyer or a doctor or a librarian. It really doesn't matter anymore because it's all
[1086.4] about if you connect with them or not.
[1088.0] Yeah, I agree. So back to entrepreneurship, Mandy. When you try to scale, what's the biggest
[1095.9] mistake you see people make when they approach a potential brand or a business partnership?
[1101.7] Look, I think for a lot of people they still see it as the one size fits all model.
[1108.2] So they'll put together a beautiful shiny deck and it might look beautiful and it might
[1113.0] have amazing information.
[1114.5] But when you send that out to 10, 20, 50 different brands, you DM people on LinkedIn, you
[1121.1] track people down.
[1123.0] It's not going to work because I think, you know, true partnerships that don't work
[1127.8] like that.
[1128.8] really about understanding what that specific brand or that specific individual, what their challenges
[1135.2] are, what they care about and how you can help them achieve their goals. They're kind of the
[1140.2] three things that I always look at because it's different for even like Apple to Samsung. It's
[1145.4] different from McDonald's to Hungry Jacks. Like, you know, even though you go, well, I'm going out
[1150.2] to all these fast food because I want a fast food partner. It's individual for every single one you do.
[1155.8] And I think I touched on this before, but for my first day years I was in hospitality and honestly,
[1161.8] I think the world would be a better place if every 20-something year old spends some time in
[1166.7] hospitality because it really teaches you what it means to see people, to understand people,
[1174.9] how to have genuine conversations. I mean, I was 19 or 20 and I was working at, you know,
[1179.4] the Chamber of Law and the City and at that age to be able to notice how people feel when you make
[1185.0] them feel a certain way. It's really own affected the way I work in the world and anything
[1191.8] I do in any specific business. And one of my all-time favourite books, which I'm not sure
[1199.2] if you've read is unreasonable hospitality, but I will grow it up. Oh my god, it's like
[1204.2] I've probably read it six times and I sometimes read it or listen to it in the car.
[1208.7] But basically I recommend anyone read it no matter what industry you're in. It's a brilliant
[1212.5] reminder that you can make people feel truly cared for in this magic in the tiny things
[1219.8] that happen and I think that that's what where people go wrong. It doesn't have to be
[1225.1] expensive, it can be the smallest tiny thing and his book's brilliant, you know, he talks
[1230.0] about one of the biggest things he did one day for people at a rest of his restaurant in
[1234.2] New York, which was ended up in the top restaurant in the world, but was go out and buy a
[1238.2] hot dog for them from a local hot dog vendor because he overheard them say they're about to leave
[1243.0] me or and they didn't get a chance to have a hot dog. So it was like a six dollar thing that he did,
[1248.8] but he took it to the kitchen. It was cutting to four incredible pieces. It was plated up.
[1253.5] And because he overheard this conversation, it's those tiny things that I'm always trying to do in
[1258.7] life to whether it's my clients, my people that come on retreat or anything. I just try and
[1264.4] Surprising to light them with tiny things that will make a difference and I can guarantee you if there's a partnership to be had
[1270.1] That's the way to do it versus you know glitzing 200 companies with the same document
[1275.2] I couldn't agree more man in in my own experience coming out of the executive search world
[1280.3] I I knew I need to world that if I had approached somebody my approach was going to
[1287.1] Unearth their there's sort of status quo at the time and I and these conversations used to go on for months months
[1294.0] months. But I always emailed on Friday afternoon, even when I had nothing to tell them, simply
[1301.6] to say no update, because why it felt a short period of time for me, it felt like an eternity
[1308.4] for them being on the hook. So it is those little things of caring about how people feel
[1314.7] and putting yourself in their shoes that I think is so important.
[1318.2] So important. And what that would have felt to that person on a Friday afternoon, it meant that they
[1323.8] probably never went to any other executive search person because they're like, well, it's how it is
[1329.4] exactly that. It's how I won business. So you're absolutely right. Exactly. Yeah. So you've painted
[1336.7] a pretty honest picture of juggling work and and you're part of the sandwich generation like I am.
[1344.8] So you've got, you know, everybody at each end of the spectrum.
[1349.3] Yeah.
[1350.3] What does burnout and working under pressure look like when you're actually at the centre
[1356.0] of it?
[1357.0] Yeah, that's very interesting and very real, still for me.
[1359.6] I still work on that a lot.
[1361.1] But I think burnout for me, it's not necessarily lying on the floor.
[1366.1] I'm able to move.
[1367.1] It's more of a subtle and sneaky thing that it catches up with you.
[1371.8] So it's doing everything for everyone, as we just said,
[1374.4] and feeling like I'm failing at all of it, to be honest.
[1377.1] Because when you're stretched so thin,
[1379.8] and you've got the kids and you've got parents,
[1381.5] and let's not forget there's a husband or a partner,
[1383.6] or someone, there's clients,
[1385.1] there's all this stuff going on.
[1387.8] I've got businesses, I'm sitting on boards,
[1390.0] and whatever, and there's nowhere to turn.
[1392.1] And I think, for me, it's trying to even remember
[1395.9] what self-care feels like, because every second
[1398.5] of every day, I'm up doing something
[1401.2] to someone else. So I've had, and he's full honesty, I've had two proper full burnouts
[1406.9] nervous breakdowns in the last 20 years, where I literally couldn't get out of bed. And
[1411.8] so I think I'm hyper aware of the signs that happen with that. It can be tears over
[1418.8] losing your charge of your computer. It can be sitting in the car for two hours before
[1423.5] school pickup answering emails, whereas really I should be going for a walk. It's canceling
[1428.5] my yin yoga which I adore which I did cancel this morning because I never could
[1432.8] bring this. But you know, but if they're doing those things, you know, they kind of all
[1437.9] just come up on you and you know, sometimes it's even like realizing your
[1441.7] line down for a pats near and that feels great because it's just a pats to
[1445.2] actually lie down all day. Yeah. And so even though that's quite funny, it's also
[1449.8] quite heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like you go, oh my god, I'm really looking
[1455.8] forward to this part speak because it means I'll just stop for five minutes. I'm like,
[1458.7] that is not a healthy way to live my life. So yeah, and look, and there's no way of getting
[1464.3] out of the sandwich generation. Like you can't just throw it all in and run away. But it's about
[1469.8] learning how to manage all those pieces. So I think for me, I've learned three to two breakdowns,
[1476.1] which actually take months to come back from. So if I don't go to that place again,
[1480.6] It's actually much better to stop before I get there.
[1483.4] So it's obviously not being everything to everyone.
[1486.9] Like sometimes I say to kids,
[1488.8] it's 7pm, I'm not going to cook,
[1491.0] I'm actually going to bed to watch Netflix.
[1492.8] I'll see you all in the morning.
[1493.9] And I try and not have guilt about that
[1495.8] because I know what you need.
[1497.5] I can't possibly do that tonight.
[1499.5] That's just what I need.
[1500.6] And I think they're fine with that.
[1502.3] I cancel on things now, which I never use to.
[1505.0] Sometimes I have tickets to certain things.
[1507.0] And on the day, I'll say to a good friend,
[1509.0] I can't. I'm exhausted. What I really need to do is go to bed and I'm okay with doing
[1515.1] those things where I think for years when I was younger I wasn't okay with doing those.
[1519.4] I pushed myself to go to that big event or that opening or because what if I met someone
[1524.2] that was going to change my life now? I'm a bit exhausted so I don't have to do that.
[1530.3] So having systems as well that save your sanity is good and for me it's a small moment
[1536.4] So I'm never gonna get, you know, the big week away by myself
[1540.2] to just ponder my own thoughts,
[1541.6] but I will be able to have a laugh with the family.
[1544.8] I mean, half the time they're laughing at me, to be honest,
[1547.2] which, you know, either make me laugh or cry,
[1550.0] depending on my frame of mind.
[1551.2] But yeah, it's a dip in the ocean.
[1552.7] It's a one hour in class.
[1554.2] It's all those things.
[1555.5] I try and go in the ocean every single day now
[1557.9] after I go to gym and I used to be like,
[1559.8] oh, that's a bit, you know,
[1561.2] I feel a bit guilty about doing that.
[1562.5] Screw it.
[1563.3] You know, go to gym, go for a dip in the ocean.
[1565.3] I met my computer by 9.30 in the morning.
[1568.0] So I think, yeah, it's really tricky
[1571.7] to put those things into your life.
[1573.6] But otherwise, we just burn ourselves
[1575.9] into the ground.
[1576.8] Our parents' generation didn't have laptops and mobiles
[1579.6] and all this stuff where we were on 24.7.
[1582.4] But I have the ability to wake up at five
[1584.6] and start working and work till midnight.
[1586.6] So it's up to me.
[1587.4] A really good point.
[1588.4] Not do those things.
[1589.2] I mean, it is a good point.
[1590.6] I mean, I grew up with a father who was on the land
[1593.8] And the hours that they'd worked particularly during harvest were ridiculous.
[1599.3] And I probably learnt to work to burn up by observing.
[1604.5] And you potentially did too with a father that was going hard.
[1610.0] And sometimes that's just baked into our DNA, I think.
[1614.0] And it's hard to unlearn it.
[1615.8] It's really hard to unlearn it.
[1617.2] And I think for years our generation has also been saying all the younger millennials
[1622.2] They don't know how to work.
[1623.4] They come in late, they leave early.
[1625.6] I've actually changed the way I think about them
[1628.2] and think actually we could learn from them.
[1630.2] They're out at run clubs.
[1631.6] They're leaving early to go to yoga or whatever.
[1633.9] And I think like good on them, whereas,
[1636.7] 10 years ago I was like,
[1638.0] oh, you're higher people and they leave the office
[1639.9] at 6 p.m.
[1640.7] But like, good on them, we should have done that
[1642.8] for 20 years rather than well.
[1644.0] We should have.
[1644.8] And do you know, when I find myself thinking that,
[1649.1] I do sometimes wonder whether we're admiring them or we're actually jealous of them because
[1655.5] they've actually taken the decision that we haven't done.
[1658.1] Absolutely.
[1659.1] And we've gained the price for that now.
[1660.5] I would have loved to all those years have gone and left and gone out with a friend rather
[1665.4] than being like, I can't.
[1666.4] I'm going to work late tonight.
[1667.4] Like I was the one forcing myself to work late.
[1669.6] No one else was doing that.
[1671.4] But I think that it's great.
[1672.7] They have much more of a balance than we do.
[1674.7] they won't have as many mental health problems in their 40s, 50s and 60s that we do.
[1681.5] But wait and see.
[1682.4] So do you have the ability now to realise when you're getting too wrapped up in your business?
[1690.3] I have to be honest with something I'm working on. I found a really, really good,
[1695.2] she's almost like a life coach, work coach slash psychologist. So she's very good at actually,
[1701.1] because I came to her and said, after my last break
[1704.4] damage was only last year, I said, I feel like I don't have that internal.
[1708.9] Other people are able to stop when they want to stop.
[1712.0] I will take on more and more and more work until I have a break down because I'm just a
[1716.6] yes person. So she's helping me put systems in process in place.
[1722.0] And like at the moment, we're working on the fact that 2026 is full.
[1725.7] Mandy, you have to say no and you say to people from now on, I can
[1729.6] work with you in 2027 which doesn't come easily to me but it's just I think it's going to be for the
[1735.2] best so it's I don't feel like I've got that internal monologue but I'm working on it.
[1740.4] But there's a great message. You've recognized that that you don't but it's but it's smart to
[1748.0] put somebody around you who can can manage that. So that's a bit like the advisory board.
[1753.6] She's your personal advisory board. Yeah definitely. Like sure I said to her the other
[1758.2] I've kind of had two or three retreats a year, then six a year and next year I've got 10.
[1762.6] And so we've gone through and worked out that like 10 is actually the next amount.
[1768.2] You know, and I'm still like what are you doing?
[1770.2] I know each retreat takes like three hundred and fifty or four hundred hours.
[1775.8] And I don't do that. I'm going to sit down and work it out. So really what I'm going to
[1779.4] need is staff at this point to help me do this. But I didn't realize that she's the one that looked
[1784.8] at the hours looked at the week and when do you want to work 130 hours a week? I'm like no,
[1789.4] she's like well that's what you just set yourself up for. So yeah it's about finding people that
[1794.8] want to help because I don't I just say oh my god that sounds so exciting let's do it. Yeah there's
[1799.6] your mirror. Yes, brilliant. Yeah well I'm here talking with Mandy Gunesberger who is a visionary
[1808.0] entrepreneur and as you've already gathered a workaholic but coming up we're going to explore
[1814.2] the power of being vulnerable.
[1816.2] A women podcast with DiGulate.
[1826.7] If you're loving the power of women podcasts, be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel
[1832.5] and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.
[1840.9] So you've been pretty candid in our discussion today about burnout and your last one, as
[1847.1] you said, was only in the last 12 months ago.
[1850.8] What did you do after selling babyology?
[1854.3] That's a big question.
[1856.0] So, yeah, after selling babyology,
[1860.4] I thought I'd planned carefully,
[1863.8] planned at my exit, to be honest.
[1865.4] But, and I'd negotiated exactly how many hours
[1868.4] I would consult to the new owners as a maximum.
[1873.0] But the day the deal was done,
[1874.7] they literally said we've got it from here.
[1876.6] So that was a massive blow to me,
[1879.8] which was, you know, for the best in the long term,
[1882.0] But I assume I'm in the off set date.
[1884.5] I believe in the child.
[1885.5] I'm a liar.
[1886.5] Literally.
[1887.5] Yeah, I packed a box.
[1889.0] I had a tin of tuna and a notebook.
[1890.8] That was pretty much all I had in my own company.
[1893.7] And I even had to ask them like, I want to take my staff
[1896.3] for lunch.
[1896.8] And it just all felt so surreal.
[1898.3] But we'd always been so big on setting up a wiki that we'd
[1901.6] had like this 400 page wiki, which now everyone has with their
[1905.5] business.
[1905.9] But it was the Bible of the business that they were basically
[1908.7] like, we've got it from here.
[1910.0] We don't need to anymore.
[1911.1] So that was really odd, I think.
[1913.3] And that was very surreal after 11 years of building a business.
[1916.5] I didn't really know.
[1917.3] If you could sum up in two words, what that feeling was,
[1921.9] what are those two words?
[1922.9] All those two words would just be,
[1925.6] devastated, surprise.
[1928.6] Like I just took me a few weeks to be like,
[1931.6] from one minute we're signing papers
[1933.4] and we've just done this big deal.
[1934.6] And now I'm no longer in the office
[1936.0] because I think also in media it was unheard of.
[1938.1] Like I basically sold at that time
[1940.2] thinking someone would buy us for two or three years and then we'd be able to live our lives and all of a sudden
[1947.2] we were leading our lives and didn't know what to do with them because my husband was in a business
[1951.6] in as well and we were both all of a sudden like unemployed. So that was okay but then so I think I was like
[1958.1] I'm gonna help other founders so you know I went and consulted with other founders still very fresh
[1963.3] out of my business but honestly it just didn't light me up at that point in my life. I found it
[1969.4] really hard when I couldn't
[1971.4] You weren't ready to stop.
[1972.9] It didn't stop.
[1973.9] Yeah, and you'd go and you'd meet with someone
[1975.8] to suggest all this stuff
[1977.1] and a month later none of it had been done.
[1979.0] So I was actually quote
[1980.5] I think that's quite like a further buy-
[1982.3] That's the thing about consulting.
[1984.1] I think consulting's really hollow
[1986.6] because you come up with all of the big picture stuff
[1991.6] but it's not your task to do the implementation.
[1994.7] And I find that for a doer
[1998.0] Yeah, and I've seen that in the in the search world. I would never advise somebody with your demeanor
[2004.8] Yeah, go into the consulting world because it would be unfulfilling
[2008.7] Exactly. Well, I know that now, but I did not know that yeah, then so yes
[2013.2] So I found it like really frustrating so really what I did then was I threw myself into planning a massive bucket list adventure
[2021.7] To Tuscany with my family so we moved our three girls over to Tuscany for a year
[2026.5] husband wasn't very keen to go he was literally like you need a job you need
[2030.7] something to entertain you but I'm like we are going to touch for me so yes we had
[2035.2] the most incredible life changing year when we went to over 20 different
[2039.6] countries that year my girls were five, 11 and 12 so really interesting time to
[2044.4] pull them out of their world you know lots of family time and no running
[2048.1] around no meetings no agendas you know we did some consulting over there in
[2052.7] early hours but really we just got to hang out and enjoy and that was 2019 so we were really lucky
[2059.4] we didn't even know COVID was around the whole year. We did that whole year they're
[2064.3] both of back to go to school in that February when every time it's like oh my god you're from Italy.
[2068.6] Wow four weeks before before it happened exactly so it's kind of crayon and then I think
[2076.3] came the harder years. That whole post-covity time, you know, for the first time in 20 years,
[2083.4] I think I decided I'd go get a real job and you know, I hadn't worked for anyone else for
[2088.3] years. But I just thought, you know, the stability of that whole grass is greener on the other
[2092.6] side. Stability, the paycheck, someone else being in charge, me just, you know, rocking out and
[2097.9] staying in my patted that go. Yes, I got fired three times, not once, but three times.
[2103.5] I'm so, I'm so, I'm so, I'm so, I'm so well.
[2108.5] So well, I've just couldn't stay in my box.
[2110.8] I would go in and try and make too much change, you know,
[2114.0] and other founders or other people in organizations,
[2117.1] that's not what they're looking for.
[2118.0] Were you surprised to be fired?
[2120.1] And then you did you guys look first and second time,
[2123.5] the third time I kind of expected it and then, you know,
[2127.0] realized this many of us, oh, that's how we're just
[2129.4] unemployable, like no one wants someone who's been doing
[2132.6] own for 20 years. And that's a badge of order. There's nothing wrong with that. That is a bad
[2136.9] exactly. I just thought it'd be nice for a while like to be you know someone pays you to
[2141.7] sickly. No, I'm hollered lately. But just nice to be able to say that the kids don't worry
[2147.3] I've got this rather than we really don't know what's going to happen this time next week or next year.
[2153.2] But yeah, I think that's the other lining of that period and that chapter reminded me to my
[2158.1] I call that I am a founder that I do like to create things that I'm, you know, that's really what I'm built for.
[2164.9] So, you know, I use everything I've learned and I've, you know, gone again because I was like, I think I could do another one.
[2170.8] So, yeah, so I think that it was like very much, you know, after six, I'd always get to that six month period and then they'd call me in and be like, yeah, this is not working out.
[2181.7] It's not okay. Great.
[2184.7] Sometimes it was like I was completely unaware and then other times I liked getting fired for over before being a daughter before being like who would have thought yeah
[2195.3] It was also just like I think this is what we should do and this is how we should do it and we're not you know
[2201.7] We've only got this percentage of this and I think other people don't want to hear that they're happy to go at their slower pace
[2208.0] And not have someone else tell them what to do. So I know that now
[2211.0] Yeah, yes.
[2213.0] Good to know.
[2215.0] So you've said from the deepest reset,
[2218.0] sometimes, doesn't come from doing more,
[2222.2] but it actually does come from doing less,
[2224.4] a bit like your year in Tuscany.
[2227.4] Exactly.
[2228.0] Why do you actually think that is such a hard message
[2231.0] for overachievers, such as yourself,
[2234.3] to actually absorb?
[2236.3] Yeah, and you diet sounds like you're one of your singers,
[2239.4] me. So, but I think to be honest, for most of us high achievers, we've our entire identity
[2247.6] has been built around doing things and ticking things off and getting things done. Like
[2251.9] that's the way I've lived since I was a teenager. So I've been rewarded my whole life
[2258.2] for being productive, for being reliable, for being capable. I'm the one that gets things
[2263.9] done. I'm the one that organises the family get together, the Christmas, you know, who's
[2268.4] bringing work. So when you suddenly stop or slow down and say I don't want to
[2273.5] host that, it does feel or it can feel like a failure. So yes, I struggle with
[2278.6] that and I think, yeah, I don't probably not the only person out there who
[2282.2] writes something on my to-do list after I've done it just so I have the
[2285.3] glee in crossing it off and feeling like I've achieved more.
[2288.2] I thought that was just me. No, I see what you're doing. I'm like, done that,
[2292.3] putting that on my list, crossing it off exactly. So I have a day list with
[2297.6] color-coded tabs that that very in color based on urgency man. Yeah no see we need help we need help
[2304.5] and it's not easy for people like us then to sign out to sit and read a book you know I'll sit
[2309.8] and read a book but then I've got my laptop open and I'm over here going all what emails have I got
[2314.8] because that's what makes me feel good is doing those things so for me it did take the complete
[2320.6] burnouts which I hope you know other people listening do not have to go through to realize that
[2325.9] you know, it rest is not a weakness for me to always felt like a weakness I had to keep going,
[2330.8] but it actually is more wisdom than anything. As I said, looking at the younger generation and
[2335.4] them taking time out, I wish that I would have done that earlier, given myself the mission to pause
[2341.4] or to breathe or to go to yoga or to read a book, you know, but it's really uncomfortable for
[2347.6] people like myself or yourself that spend decades proving there were through how many things I can
[2352.8] achieve on a list every day. So it is it's learning a new language and it's you know a language of
[2358.8] stillness and not having to be busy like you know going from what do you think your kids are learning?
[2364.5] Do you think you're producing another generation of you or do you think they're a little bit more
[2370.0] informed? I think to be honest and they're now 13, 18 and 19. No I think they've seen me.
[2376.8] They've been through my breakdown. So I've been through my last previous three months where from
[2381.7] last I don't know September till December I really couldn't get out of bed because I was so burnt
[2386.8] out you know you rebuild yourself by doing one activity a day today I'm going to have a shower today
[2391.9] like really severe burnout and you've really done it haven't you? I just hit the bottom so quickly
[2398.3] because I never know when to stop so I think the girls have seen that and it actually has taught
[2404.0] them a lesson and they've said we're not we're not going to do that we're going to be here.
[2407.2] They're like crazy why are you like you know now when I'm like I've got these ten retreats
[2411.2] it's all like you're a bloody idiot, Mum.
[2413.1] Like you know that you're gonna fall under all that weight.
[2416.2] And I'm like, no, no, I'm gonna get help.
[2418.6] I'm gonna hire people.
[2421.5] Because I don't wanna be there again.
[2423.2] And I'm not good at saying no.
[2424.7] So I've got this other person over here
[2426.3] who is my no person, my kind of advisor.
[2429.6] And then my kids and my family that say,
[2431.5] do you really wanna go there again?
[2433.1] So I do think the girl's even the little one at 13.
[2436.1] It has seen me.
[2437.3] She comes in and goes,
[2438.3] are you driving me to school?
[2439.3] I look like you're staying a bit again today.
[2441.3] So, you know, I don't think that's necessarily a negative
[2444.9] thing for them to learn at this age.
[2446.8] You know, I think that's what life is.
[2450.9] You know, you work too hard and you burn it out and you fall in a heap.
[2453.9] Yeah.
[2454.3] And I know in the own, my own role models in life, there were,
[2458.8] I learned as much from the negative things as I did from the positive.
[2462.3] And I mean, that should be our learning journey in life in, in general.
[2465.8] We acquire it from all of those experiences.
[2470.2] So tell me about your business,
[2473.3] you're now focusing on other people's wellness.
[2476.6] I am.
[2477.4] I am.
[2478.4] I am.
[2479.4] Exactly.
[2480.4] And that's the thing.
[2482.6] What does it look like if the ironer and founder of a wellness business who talks about giving
[2487.4] yourself a rest, has a nervous breakdown?
[2489.5] It's not a good look.
[2490.9] So, so yes, I definitely try to practice what I preach.
[2494.9] take that pause and take that breath.
[2497.2] But yeah, absolutely.
[2498.5] Nourish travel was born out of my own healing journey.
[2501.9] You know, I hit that wall after I sold Babyology
[2504.7] and I spent so many years in that constant juggling
[2507.5] the business, juggling the kids, juggling parents,
[2510.0] trying to hold everything together
[2511.6] and running on that pure adrenaline.
[2514.1] And so that you're in Tuscany for me,
[2516.2] while I sat here and you don't need to go to Tuscany
[2518.6] to have that year, but it was just such an eye opening experience
[2522.6] to be able to sit outside and not have a plan and not go anywhere.
[2526.7] And Tuscany taught me that they do one meeting a day.
[2529.7] I mean, one meeting a day, that's how they're in their life.
[2532.9] And quite often it's incredible.
[2534.8] So I got there and I was like, you know, 10, 12,
[2537.6] two and I'd be late for everything.
[2539.3] Cause quite often that 10 o'clock meeting is them saying,
[2542.1] let's have a coffee, let's get to know each other.
[2544.6] Let's go for a walk.
[2545.7] Now I know why in the rag trade we always use to know
[2549.7] that fabric deliveries would always be late for me.
[2553.3] Yes, because they ran on their own time.
[2555.3] They're not going to switch.
[2556.3] They're not going to switch.
[2557.3] I don't think that's a bad thing.
[2558.5] They're karma. They're happier.
[2560.1] Love life. They have their CS staff.
[2562.7] So I haven't brought a lot of that back in,
[2564.9] but the one meeting a day thing really got me
[2567.9] because that meeting is often a coffee, then a walk,
[2570.5] then a nice lunch.
[2571.9] And you spend three or four or five hours with one person
[2575.1] and then you decide whether you're going to work with them.
[2577.5] So talk about partnerships and really understanding what someone wants.
[2581.1] That's an incredible way of looking at that.
[2583.2] There's a lot to learn.
[2584.4] A lot to learn.
[2585.4] Whereas we think having eight meetings a day is really the way to do it.
[2588.7] Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
[2589.8] And you know, you get on a call and you're like, right, where are we?
[2592.4] Have this under contract?
[2593.8] What are we doing?
[2595.0] That's not necessarily the way other people work around the world.
[2597.9] So yeah.
[2599.5] So yeah, I think during that time, I started to do things that helped me feel more
[2603.8] human and come out of that real adrenal fatigue.
[2606.8] I was in it was having honest conversations with many other women as well, all through COVID,
[2612.6] you know, just about that they're all carrying all these things.
[2616.0] So I think that's how NARS travel really began was to be able to create a space to offer
[2621.2] other women and men.
[2622.6] We have a lot of men that come on out retreats as well.
[2625.4] Just a condition to slow down.
[2627.2] So I do things that are one day, I do things that are three days, I do them locally, I do
[2631.7] them internationally in Tuscany or Bouncyana or wherever, you know, hosts want to go.
[2636.5] but it's all about, even if it's just the one day one,
[2639.6] giving you that space to just look out for yourself.
[2643.2] If you wanna spend that day sitting
[2644.8] and reading a book and not talking to anyone,
[2647.0] do it, like I don't force anyone.
[2648.9] It's not a retreat where I'll gong your room and say,
[2651.9] it's time for the morning sunset walk.
[2654.4] If someone, you know, I had a woman recently that came to one
[2657.6] and she had a one or four and a five year old,
[2659.9] had never been away from them.
[2661.4] And her husband gifted it to her.
[2663.2] She just wanted to sleep and I was like,
[2665.0] I'm just gonna come check on you and make sure that you've eaten, but otherwise you don't need to be at anything.
[2670.4] And like so for everyone, it actually means something different.
[2674.0] It's some people it's connecting with others.
[2676.0] Some people it's doing nothing.
[2678.0] And some people it's filling that schedule with one thing after the other.
[2682.0] But you know, everyone is about to have that transformational mind.
[2686.0] Mind you, that's harder on the organizer because you haven't got a set agenda.
[2690.0] It is.
[2691.0] And what I do is I have a set agenda.
[2693.4] Actually, today I've just sent out for my next one.
[2695.6] These are the five or six things we're thinking of doing
[2698.4] in the afternoon.
[2699.6] We're not doing all of them.
[2701.0] Let us know which ones you would want to do the most.
[2703.8] And I will surprise you with which ones we do.
[2706.8] But every single day of every moment,
[2708.7] I say nothing is compulsory.
[2711.6] If you don't want to come to anything you don't have to.
[2714.0] But women have a lot of men as well have photos.
[2717.1] So the minute you actually put something on a schedule,
[2720.0] I think, oh, God, this going to the beekeeping might be the best thing ever.
[2723.6] What if I don't go to that?
[2725.2] And then what if I don't go to this?
[2726.7] So I actually do allow space where nothing is on for those people that feel
[2731.1] fo-mo because they can't help themselves come to everything.
[2734.4] And then at the end of it, they say, I really wish there was some downtime
[2737.1] because I didn't give myself any.
[2739.1] So it is harder for me as an organizer, but I think I'm getting to the point
[2743.2] where I understand the way people's rhythms work and giving them that two to four
[2747.4] two to five afternoon gap. We'll allow them to have an app for a swim or
[2751.7] geogor or read a book or whatever. But yeah, if I schedule something super fun,
[2756.5] they'll be there. So we try and it's like toddlers. You have to give them their afternoon break.
[2764.8] Good learning, Kurt. So many, I'd love you to speak directly to the female entrepreneur or
[2772.1] or business person listening to the podcast today.
[2775.7] If you were to pay forward all the amassed knowledge
[2779.8] and wisdom that you've learned over time,
[2783.7] and could speak to the version of yourself
[2786.7] who was running on empty, what would you tell her?
[2791.6] Oh, the first thing I tell her is to stop trying to do it all.
[2795.2] It's actually impossible.
[2797.0] And I don't know anyone who can do it all
[2799.0] and not have massive mental health issues by doing that.
[2803.5] So I think what I've learned is I don't need to earn rest
[2808.5] or level success by doing more.
[2812.8] You've got to believe, which I've just turned 50,
[2815.6] and it's taken me this many years,
[2817.4] but you've got to believe that you are enough
[2819.3] even when you pause and especially when you pause.
[2822.6] So taking that pause doesn't mean you're not succeeding
[2825.4] and that you're failing, it means that you actually care
[2828.3] about yourself, about the others around your, about your family, about your business, whatever
[2832.5] you're doing, because it will give you more to be able to do things. You know, it's that
[2837.6] the world's not going to fall apart if you take that breath and asking for help is not
[2843.8] a weakness. It's actually a strength to say, like, not coping, can't do it all. Don't
[2848.6] know how to stop doing it, or which is where I'm always at. Like, I actually can't stop
[2852.7] myself. So I need other people to help me stop.
[2855.8] You needed an outsource.
[2857.3] You can break. Exactly. And that's fine. I think that's fine. I know that about myself
[2861.3] after all these years that I'm my own worst enemy and I'll take on too much till I fall.
[2866.7] So I think that would be the biggest thing. You know, and that's why I absolutely love
[2871.4] doing what I do now because I get these women that come to me. I've built a relationship
[2876.2] with men and women for the six months prior to a retreat about what they want, what it looks
[2881.4] like why they're coming, you know, it's not just those three days and then I tailor it to them
[2886.5] so that they get the rest and that individual thing that they need. You know, as I was saying,
[2890.8] a retreat is not a one size fits all, get 25 people, I actually understand each person and why
[2897.6] they've come and how I can make it special for them. So I love it. It's like all the things I've
[2902.7] ever done put into one now. Oh, wonderful. Well, Mandy, thank you so much for sharing your entrepreneurial
[2909.2] knowledge and also being so candid about being so focused and so committed to
[2915.8] pushing yourself to the brink. And I think for many listeners and I know
[2920.9] interviewing you here today it is a bit like somebody holding up the mirror
[2924.7] and you're going okay alrighty I need to read the signs I need to I need to listen
[2932.9] and as you said so rightly just before the wheels are not going to fall off if
[2938.9] if you take an extra hour to go to yoga class or you do something and next time ring me
[2946.3] and say I need to re-schedule because I've got too much.
[2949.8] No, don't worry.
[2950.8] I'm going to give you a good time.
[2952.6] I'm going to give you a good time.
[2954.6] Excellent.
[2955.6] But no thanks for having me.
[2957.6] It's so lovely to have a chat with you.
[2959.6] Yeah, love what you do and I really hope that people get something out of this.
[2963.2] I did warn you.
[2964.2] I was very honest.
[2965.2] So I have been very honest.
[2966.6] Yes, that's what we want.
[2968.6] And Mandy, what's the name of the business?
[2970.7] I'm gonna put it in the show notes,
[2972.0] but give me the name of the business for the retreat.
[2974.3] So, narrastravel.com.
[2977.1] Yep. narrastravel.com.
[2978.7] Narrastravel.com.
[2980.5] Exactly. So you can find me there.
[2982.3] And I know Mandy shows up on LinkedIn
[2985.7] and if you're interested to learn more about what I do,
[2988.9] outside of the podcast,
[2990.1] I too show up quite a bit on LinkedIn
[2992.3] and I've got a power of reinvention newsletter
[2996.2] that I post weekly there.
[2997.8] And like Mandy, I'm in midlife and we're doing lots of things and we're not stopping.
[3004.0] So it's not celebrate that.
[3006.2] Children are growing up.
[3007.2] Absolutely.
[3008.2] That's how it's going to be done.
[3010.4] Thanks Mandy, until next time.
[3014.1] Chocolate Studios, we believe in the power of a mode of storytelling to shake culture,
[3028.2] inspire change and connect people.
[3031.6] It's a magic of an idea, the beauty of the image and the power of the sound.
[3037.8] We believe that advertising is not just about selling products, but about creating experiences
[3043.4] and building communities.
[3045.5] Chocolate Studios is an advertising agency, creating stories that change hearts and minds
[3051.4] and inspire.
[3053.6] See our story at chocolatesstudios.com.au