[4.7] Welcome to Women in B2B Marketing, a show where CMOs,
[8.6] VPs of marketing, and all strong women leaders in B2B.
[12.1] Discuss their top tactics, strategies,
[14.5] and tips for building high performing teams,
[17.2] leveraging trends, and ultimately rocking their marketing careers.
[21.5] Made by and for women insightful for all.
[24.6] I'm your host and 15-year B2B Marketer, Jane Sarah.
[28.1] Let's dive in.
[29.5] Hi, everybody. Thank you for joining us for a new episode of Women in B2B Marketing.
[39.7] I'm super stoked for our guests today.
[42.9] We have with us Leslie Ford,
[44.9] who is I could list off of a Jillian
[47.1] titles for her right now,
[48.5] but I'll stick with a few for right now.
[51.0] CEO and founder of Mom's Hierarchy of Needs,
[54.0] author of the newly released book,
[57.0] Repair and Self-Care.
[58.8] Definitely I'll put Lincoln in show notes here.
[61.3] Everyone should read this.
[62.8] And strategic advisor to HubSpot,
[65.5] we're gonna talk all things,
[67.3] parenting women in the workplace with an actual marketer.
[72.4] So it's kind of a break from the usual B to B talk,
[75.1] but she is a B to B marketer.
[77.1] So welcome to the show Leslie.
[78.6] So excited to have you.
[80.3] Oh, and I'm honored to be here.
[82.6] Thank you so much for holding space
[84.7] for this conversation.
[87.3] Yes, I'm so excited.
[88.7] Before we get into your background,
[90.8] because I definitely wanna hear all the details.
[93.1] We could spend the whole episode on that.
[95.1] But how I found you on LinkedIn,
[98.1] if everyone has heard the book, High Women.
[101.2] It's a book that came out this year,
[103.1] so it's around the same time as Leslie's book as well.
[105.9] And what is her name again, Leslie?
[107.1] I don't wanna butcher it.
[108.3] Aaron Gallagher.
[109.8] Aaron Gallagher.
[110.9] Author of High Women and her company is also named,
[115.9] High Women.
[116.8] So yes, it was just incredibly good fortune
[121.7] that I've been kind of following her on LinkedIn for a while.
[125.1] And just appreciated how candid she is.
[129.1] Yes.
[130.0] Doesn't hold back, doesn't avoid saying the hard thing.
[133.9] Just puts it out there in such a bold and refreshing way.
[139.5] Yes.
[140.4] So I had an opportunity to join one of her dinners
[143.9] called fairway dinners.
[145.8] And in that moment, it was the first time I'd met her in person
[149.6] and that was just over the summer.
[151.2] So that's what kind of led me to get a chance to meet her,
[155.0] to preorder her book.
[156.8] She created space at that dinner
[160.1] for all the women around the table to ask for something.
[163.1] Yes.
[164.0] And how often do we get to do that?
[165.7] We don't.
[166.5] So it felt really empowering to be able to ask for what I needed
[170.6] in terms of support in my business.
[175.0] She asked if we would preorder her book.
[177.9] It created the space for me to ask
[180.0] if the attendees could preorder my book.
[182.4] And then that night I sent her little note
[184.6] with a little preorder copy of my preorder receipt
[187.0] for her book and I said I preordered it.
[189.7] And wow, I would love to interview you
[192.0] for my site at some point.
[193.6] So it just opened up this door for me to learn even more
[198.1] about her work and to have an opportunity
[200.8] to be a hype woman and share her work.
[203.6] Yes, I think all listeners of this show
[207.2] should if they do not already follow her end youlessly as part of the hype women movement.
[212.1] It just makes so much sense for every listener of the show. It's all about women supporting women
[217.2] lifting each other up. As you said, creating that space for each other. It's beautiful. And she's
[222.0] badass. Like the post she writes a very raw and just they get you in the heart. So I love that
[228.0] beat through her. She's living and breathing hype women. She was hyping you on LinkedIn. Then
[234.1] And that's how I found you and your book and wanted to bring you here.
[237.4] So love the circle of us lifting each other up.
[240.0] Absolutely.
[241.2] Yeah.
[241.8] So Leslie, tell us how did you get into the world of marketing?
[246.0] And then how did you transform and evolve into all that you do today?
[251.6] It's originally through research.
[254.5] And so I'm going to go way back even pre resume.
[258.0] I started working in high school and the original
[263.6] retail sales, right? And it was my kind of way to make money and way to kind of gain some independence.
[270.0] But I also, as a teenager, I discovered market research and telemarketing and that it paid way more
[278.4] than retail sales. So I was that young person doing the mall intercept surveys in high school
[285.6] in college and love it, conducting telemarketing surveys for research company. And then later,
[291.5] coding SPSS surveys. So I was just really fascinated by the human condition and market research
[299.8] was my entry point. It's how I paid my way through school. And it also kind of allowed me to get
[308.6] into my first postgrad role. Later, I became a product manager, but they hired me as a market
[315.8] analyst because of my research background. And it gave me that insight into how clients or consumers
[324.0] at the time because I started in consumer marketing. Actually, I guess B to B to C because I worked for
[331.0] Bouch and Lom, huge organization. I worked in the contact lens division. So even in that early job,
[338.0] although a lot of my work was to understand consumer behavior and to make the products more attractive
[345.2] and visible and meeting their needs.
[347.9] We also had a channel strategy because consumer lenses
[352.8] are not sold directly to consumers.
[355.1] They're sold to medical officers and through large retailers.
[358.4] So I had that first entry point
[362.2] into B2B to C marketing.
[365.3] And I just fell in love with it.
[367.7] Yeah.
[368.7] Oh, it's so interesting.
[370.1] And how did you move from the world of marketing
[373.5] into writing a book and creating your own company,
[378.2] becoming a founder.
[379.3] Can you tell us a little about that path?
[381.3] I like to, like you said, creating space.
[384.2] I also like to share information and kind of create new paths
[387.6] for the listeners and for myself
[389.6] to learn all the different ways we could earn a living
[392.9] and help people and find our purpose.
[395.8] Absolutely.
[396.8] As you well know, depending on what discipline of marketing
[401.0] you're in and I've been in several.
[403.8] There's a lot of communication.
[405.9] So I was always a writer,
[408.2] but I was typically a marketing writer
[410.8] or a business writer, a presentation writer.
[414.5] And I was the go-to person for writing projects
[419.0] in all of the organizations that I worked for.
[421.8] So I had that interest, again, going way back, childhood.
[427.0] I wrote poems, I wrote books.
[429.8] It just didn't feel like a responsible career path
[433.3] to pursue my creative interests.
[435.8] And so I wanted to kind of go into the corporate world
[439.4] and wanted to kind of use my business skills.
[442.2] But I had this creative energy at all points.
[445.8] And when I started this, I guess, movement for mom's hierarchy
[450.5] of needs, and I just became obsessed with the challenge
[454.2] of why are mothers taking care of ourselves?
[458.5] Why are we growing professionally in the same way that we do pre-kids?
[463.3] And why are there so few mothers in senior leadership?
[466.6] Like what's going on with that?
[468.5] So that became an obsession.
[470.8] And it was a different type of communication.
[473.5] I mean, I was working full time for quite a while
[475.9] in the beginning.
[476.7] But I was no longer behind the veil of a corporate brand.
[481.5] I was writing as myself, and I was writing about a problem
[485.3] that I had experienced and a problem that I saw
[488.4] they had economic and macro level implications.
[492.6] But I had to kind of find my own voice
[495.4] to engage with mothers and enlist them
[499.8] in wanting to solve the problems for themselves
[502.6] because many of us experience this challenge.
[506.1] And I had to also enlist employers, leaders, organizations
[512.1] in wanting to understand how they could play an active role.
[516.5] So that was kind of my entry point to writing in a persuasive way and writing in a much more
[523.4] personal way than I had in many, many years.
[526.8] Yes.
[528.1] I love that because it just happens organically, right?
[530.5] You have these moments of realization like this is a problem or a challenge.
[535.1] How can I help draw attention to this at the very least and help solve it for individuals?
[540.4] Absolutely.
[541.2] I'm going to pause and roll back a little bit into marketing and then we'll come back into
[547.2] the greater picture and I'd love to talk all about your book.
[550.9] So you've worked across as you just mentioned, product, marketing, partnerships, strategy,
[556.6] research, workplace wellness, all of this.
[559.8] So looking back, is the through line you kind of just mentioned this, the through line
[564.3] here that research and communication or what do you think connected all of this?
[570.6] really understanding what made people tick, understanding the human condition.
[576.4] You must got people excited or what made people fearful or what made people happy.
[582.9] And once I kind of started to understand that, I really wanted to have influence on
[591.0] opportunities in the world to make things better. So I was never the person who could go and work
[597.7] at the widget company, if that makes sense. Like, yeah, I worked at Bausch-a-Lom because I was
[602.6] actually born with low vision and then I wanted to work in vision correction. And then later,
[608.2] I worked at Xerox, but they're adaptive products, technology, division for people who are blind or
[614.5] had low vision. I wanted to work and later at the early stages of the internet, I worked for a
[621.3] company that was kind of democratizing search and making high quality like research articles
[628.0] available on a like paper use basis. So every organization I had some and then later for the
[634.6] past 10 to 15 years childcare, elder care, children's early childhood education, parent tech.
[642.1] So I had mental health. So I've been in this space on the system side in my kind of corporate life
[648.5] for the past over 10 years now.
[651.1] But all of these products or service areas
[655.9] touched me personally in some way.
[658.5] I had some real motivation to be able to influence
[663.4] how people thought about it and understood it.
[666.5] I don't know if I would be an effective marker for a widget
[670.9] or for something that I didn't have some personal stand.
[675.2] Yeah, you have to feel that passion.
[678.0] Absolutely agreed.
[679.8] That makes the best marketers when you truly believe
[682.9] in what you're marketing, it goes so much further.
[686.4] So it sounds like impact.
[688.0] It's always been driven to mission focused
[691.7] and impact focused organizations or brands, et cetera.
[696.8] So that makes sense.
[698.6] Speaking of, so you run and correct me
[702.0] if I have any of this wrong.
[703.7] You've run the longest running national parent study
[707.6] on pandemic and post pandemic mental health.
[711.1] What is a finding that our listeners here should understand
[715.8] and know about here that we might not know?
[718.1] Is there anything surprising you can share with us?
[720.5] Well, it's probably not surprising
[722.6] to any caregiving woman.
[725.2] Yeah.
[726.0] My study is 97% women.
[728.0] So I'll caveat that.
[729.1] So it's very how I'm heavy.
[731.3] When those with a small percentage of brave dads
[734.6] who shared their stories.
[736.4] But mothers were not doing well, prepandemic.
[740.2] And as the infrastructure that parents rely on the most
[745.4] childcare for many of us elder care, K-12 education,
[751.4] healthcare, as those huge institutions have been really
[756.4] destabilized and capacity constrained in the past five
[761.4] plus years, what was already kind of a growing crisis
[765.7] in mental health, physical health,
[767.7] disconnection and disengagement in the workplace
[771.0] has only worsened.
[773.0] So we're at this inflection point where I don't know
[777.0] how low the floor can go.
[779.3] But a lot of mothers, bright or just not feeling
[783.9] like they are living the lives they had signed up for,
[787.1] that they wanted.
[788.4] We add of course macro stressors that are happening right now,
[792.2] so a lot of people are struggling with the political
[795.2] climate, the social climate, financial climate and economic hardship. So all of that is swirling,
[802.7] and I think underneath all of those kind of unfortunate stressors, there is this indifetigable
[811.0] spirit of mothers and our collective power for compassion, for social change, for community building,
[822.2] for care. It's in there that mothers have this really powerful voice and place in society.
[830.7] We struggled to be able to exercise our voices in a way that serves us and gives us access to the
[839.4] resources that we deserve. Yes. This kind of ties back to what you mentioned about how we
[845.4] we really get the opportunity or take the opportunity to ask for things. I was at an event
[851.4] earlier this year, Wednesday women events and they always ask for it's a group of women that get
[856.5] together at dinner. And at each table, you have a give and a get. So what can you offer everybody
[863.2] at the table and what would you like to receive in return? And I always every time I'm in a space
[868.7] like this, I struggle so hard with the get, with the ask. Just like you said earlier, like,
[874.6] but it unlocks, like somebody asking you to do this. And what other people are saying just opens it up
[880.5] for you. Absolutely. And we need that. Like, we need environments where we feel that the permission
[889.1] is there and the psychological safety is there because there's vulnerability for women
[894.3] in asking for what we need and the more practice we get, the more opportunity we get, the more
[902.9] support and like championship we get. Like, it starts to get easier. And
[909.8] And yeah, again, it starts to unlock that power that we have
[915.2] that feels so untapped.
[917.9] Yeah, an uncomfortable at first, but he breakthrough it.
[922.0] You also mentioned, I think this was in the LinkedIn post
[925.0] that burnout has become almost a default state
[928.6] for a lot of us for high achieving women specifically.
[931.9] Is this something that is part of that study
[935.1] or what early signs do you see or should we keep an eye on?
[939.1] That's a really great question.
[941.7] It is embedded in the study
[943.9] and I'll kind of explain how something that I look
[947.6] and examine in the research study is
[950.1] I ask the question in different ways
[951.9] but like basically how would you rate yourself
[954.0] in each of your roles, right?
[955.5] As a parent, as a worker,
[957.8] as a caregiver to elders
[959.2] as you have those responsibilities.
[961.0] As a caregiver to yourself, right?
[964.2] And I ask as a caregiver to yourself.
[966.8] So one of the markers, that's a hallmark of the study
[970.4] and something I really examine closely
[972.5] is that self-care stats.
[974.5] So in the way that I define it,
[976.5] like in the mom's hierarchy of needs,
[978.1] world of self-care,
[979.7] it's things like sleep and movement
[982.7] and stress management, nutrition
[984.6] and healthy adult relationships.
[986.0] It's all those top of hierarchy activities
[989.0] that help us manage cortisol in our bodies
[992.3] and help us improve our mental, physical,
[995.4] emotional health or maintain. So when I ask women, moms in particular, how they're doing,
[1003.2] right now it's trending around 79 to 80% who say they're doing terribly or not as well as usual.
[1009.6] Wow. Yeah.
[1010.8] Had self care. During the height of the pandemic, there was a point in the very early stages where
[1018.1] it was lower than it is. Like it was better than it is now. There was a point where it was worse.
[1025.4] like actually after like the conditions were changing.
[1030.0] But if you're not able to care for your preventative health,
[1035.1] that has a really corrosive impact on your work,
[1039.6] on your relationships, on your children, on everything.
[1043.5] So I see that as a really important kind of precursor
[1047.4] to burnout.
[1048.4] I also tell people, and I tell employers this especially,
[1051.5] right, in my work to support caregivers in the workplace,
[1055.3] And with employee resource groups,
[1057.4] which are often volunteer run,
[1059.5] often volunteer run by women, don't get me started.
[1062.4] Yes, but so true.
[1064.2] Right.
[1065.2] Like exactly.
[1066.2] You know, you know who's there.
[1067.7] They are the volunteer, whatever.
[1068.9] It's us with our hands like waving, saying yes,
[1071.8] let me do that free thing.
[1073.5] But I tell everyone that in this environment
[1078.5] and even before, if you feel like you're doing terribly
[1081.9] at self care. And you're doing terribly as a mother and terribly as a daughter and terribly
[1087.6] as a partner or a wife or terribly as a caregiver again to siblings or into your community.
[1096.5] Like something will change. You will blow something up. It might be where you live. It might
[1101.8] be your marriage. It might be your job. Right? But you will find that feeling of doing badly
[1109.4] everything like excruciating and you will blow something up to change it. So to me, that's the marker
[1117.7] that I look at and even when I'm running like employee studies and research that kind of mirror
[1123.8] my big study. I'm looking at how do people feel about their roles and do they feel effective? Do
[1131.4] they have that sense of self-efficacy and self-trust? Because if that's there, then people generally
[1137.8] feel like they have the toolkit to manage things that come up. But if it's not there, and they
[1143.8] feel like they're doing badly and everything, right? It's just that lack of confidence, that
[1149.1] lack of self-efficacy starts to really harm people's well-being.
[1155.0] Yeah. As you're speaking, I definitely have those days. And my answers to those questions vary
[1162.0] hour to hour if not, I'm doing today.
[1165.5] But I think especially now,
[1167.6] what your studies seems to support is,
[1169.7] it feels like everyone I talk to is overwhelmed all the time.
[1174.0] There's this feeling of overwhelm.
[1175.8] Like you said, there's macro things
[1177.9] like the political environment, the economy,
[1180.4] like social injustice, and then things in our own families,
[1184.4] and our work and feeling like we're not doing well
[1187.2] in any aspect.
[1188.6] So it can all become quite heavy for lack of a better word.
[1192.8] 100% and this is where the self care.
[1196.1] Yeah.
[1197.0] Peace, right?
[1197.8] My ministry, health for mom.
[1199.4] So critical because we have to pour into ourselves.
[1204.8] We have to refuel.
[1207.1] We have to look for every opportunity.
[1210.7] It doesn't have to be extensive.
[1212.6] It doesn't have to be a vacation.
[1214.4] Actually, it shouldn't be a vacation or something
[1216.6] that's in frequent.
[1218.0] like little things in the day where we can pour into ourselves.
[1222.5] And that positively impacts how we feel,
[1226.7] it positively impacts what we expect
[1230.1] and how we anticipate and want to be treated by others.
[1234.1] So I think that there is, it's not the answer as in
[1238.9] there's so many complicated reasons that work and life
[1243.2] and wellbeing are elusive from others.
[1247.4] And a lot of those answers are public policy answers, right?
[1250.4] Spoiler alert, which I kind of reference in the book, right?
[1253.8] Yeah.
[1254.4] And I work in the systems of employment and the systems of work, because that's a big piece.
[1260.0] You can be the most Jedi level boundary setter in the world, but if you get the hairy eyeball when
[1265.5] you want to pick up your kids, everything unravels.
[1269.8] So it's finding those places where you can apply those little positive interventions in your
[1277.0] life. And that begins to help you refuel, reset, heal and come to the clarity that you need.
[1287.0] Whatever adjustments you need to make or want to make in your life.
[1291.0] Yeah.
[1292.0] Or career.
[1293.0] I have a kind of a two-part question here. Where do you recommend women start individually
[1300.0] on their own self-care? And then what can we do as leaders in the workplace for our
[1306.6] teams to support them or our colleagues, kind of ourselves and others.
[1312.0] Ready? What do you recommend? Where do we begin?
[1314.4] It's also a great question. I know this sounds really basic, but I think sleep.
[1319.1] It is. Right? Like for moms, sleep is the thing that we don't get to and that we don't do,
[1327.2] but yet it's so important for long-term health. The whole third section of my book is about
[1333.3] health span for moms and actually making this movement, which like you've got men out there,
[1339.6] like climbing the Himalayas for the bright salt and they're taking their cold plunges and
[1344.9] we're just like cleaning the counters and picking up the Legos and we're just like left out of the
[1349.5] whole thing. So I do feel like sleep is foundational. Movement is foundational. Time outside is foundational.
[1359.0] And even if it's just like a few deep breaths with the door closed in the bathroom or
[1366.3] splashing the water on your face, it helps.
[1368.9] Mm-hmm.
[1369.9] You know, I've interviewed so many great, like, clinicians and experts and I poured a ton of their
[1375.9] insights into the book in addition to my research.
[1379.4] But yeah, like those little pauses and those little breaks and the rest and the movement,
[1385.3] like they really do give you energy
[1388.4] and you need sources of energy to keep going.
[1390.9] So that's critical on the personal side
[1394.4] and don't feel daunted by it for everyone who's listening.
[1397.7] If you're a caregiving woman out there,
[1399.4] like give yourself a five minute goal.
[1403.0] It's like, hey, I'm gonna just take some deep breaths
[1405.6] for five minutes a day.
[1407.2] Start with five minutes,
[1409.1] put a block on your calendar
[1411.2] and have it repeat every day for five minutes
[1414.5] at a time when you typically have coverage
[1417.8] or where you typically are able to pause.
[1421.1] Like find something that's fueling and healing for you.
[1424.9] So I think that's really critical.
[1426.5] It has to be daily.
[1428.2] I tell people you may love climbing the Swiss Alps,
[1431.4] but it can't be that unless you live in the Swiss Alps.
[1434.6] It can't be that.
[1435.5] It has to be something you can do.
[1437.8] I love that.
[1438.7] The other one on the workplace side,
[1442.1] I think just being really transparent about deadlines and expectations is a huge opportunity
[1448.7] for managers.
[1450.8] Everybody wants to be excellent at everything.
[1453.8] So if you hand over that project, people will break themselves in half to do it as fast
[1458.9] as possible.
[1460.1] And if they have 15 other projects that they've been given, they're not necessarily going
[1466.1] to raise their hands and say, I have 15 projects and get ones the most important. They're not going
[1473.8] to ask because again, the psychological safety isn't there. So as a leader, I tell people, just
[1479.8] communicate, hey, this new project. I realize you've a lot on your plate right now. I'd really
[1485.4] love to see it done by the end of the year. If that's feasible, because it's not high priority,
[1492.2] or let me give you another scenario. It could be, ooh, this new project is really time sensitive
[1497.3] and high priority. Those other five projects that you've been assigned, put them in the deep freeze.
[1503.6] Let's revisit them in Q1 because for now, this has a more meaningful impact on the business,
[1510.7] or this has a more meaningful impact on year-end or revenue or profit or whatever your targets are.
[1516.9] So just having that type of dialogue,
[1521.7] freeze people to prioritize accordingly,
[1526.8] to reclaim some discretionary time
[1529.3] and some agency over how they do their work
[1532.9] and what work gets done first.
[1535.2] Yes, I love that because we often talk about managing up,
[1540.6] and saying to those above us,
[1543.8] Okay, if we add this as a priority, it has to shift this.
[1547.4] But not everybody A is aware of being able to do that
[1550.6] or B has the confidence to do that.
[1554.1] So flipping it as managers and us being super aware
[1558.6] of limitations of bandwidth of our team
[1563.0] and voicing that giving them that permission, right?
[1566.3] To be able to say it, to push back.
[1569.5] Like I think one thing I try to say to my team,
[1572.6] I can do a lot better at this.
[1574.4] So I'm writing this down.
[1576.0] Is I try to say like, okay,
[1577.5] this is what we need to do.
[1579.4] Push back if you can't do this.
[1580.9] Like, to let me know if there's a problem,
[1582.7] let me know if there's a challenge.
[1584.0] Like, give them that permission
[1586.1] so that they don't just add it to their list
[1588.7] and stay up all night working on these things.
[1591.3] Exactly.
[1592.3] And, you know, I think technology is also really enabled us
[1596.7] to schedule send.
[1598.8] You might be working at midnight
[1600.9] And you might love to work at midnight,
[1602.7] but your team does not need to know
[1604.1] you're working at midnight,
[1605.1] because then they will think,
[1606.3] they have to be available to you at midnight,
[1608.5] and they will think that they have to do the same.
[1611.0] So like schedule send during business hours,
[1614.0] I realize this gets a lot more complicated
[1616.7] with global teams,
[1618.3] but some technology is even smart
[1621.8] about sending it during the business hours of the team member
[1625.6] when you're dealing with a global team,
[1627.1] because I have several clients that have that technology.
[1629.7] Yes. So finding a way to model that there really is off time and that the expectation of
[1639.8] the role is not that you're available 24-7 because not only is it unhealthy, it's actually
[1646.0] unproductive.
[1647.0] So true.
[1648.2] We're kind of conditioned to think, oh, well, let me just push self-care aside so I can
[1652.5] get more done.
[1654.2] But the reality is there is no finish line to the things on your to do list by there is no
[1660.3] end to those things.
[1662.5] So you will always be pushing off self care if you approach it and do that lens.
[1667.7] And there's so many great studies, not just, you know, I mean, so many great studies that
[1672.2] balladied breaks time for deep work, time for rest, just having a decent night's sleep.
[1680.1] All of those things improve clarity and memory and strategic thinking, everything that
[1688.4] you really want your team to be able to deliver as part of their work is on the other
[1694.9] side of their ability to care for themselves.
[1698.6] So if you show them that you are doing it, they will feel like it's okay to do it too.
[1704.7] Yes.
[1705.7] Yes.
[1706.7] Leading by example.
[1707.7] I love that.
[1708.7] Because of your amazing career and different paths that you've taken,
[1712.9] you've been in rooms with fellow founders, fellow authors,
[1716.8] fellow marketers, your teams,
[1719.1] and even outside of what you've done,
[1721.2] right, physicians and other researchers working moms,
[1724.9] probably not working moms.
[1727.6] So, or I shouldn't say not working,
[1730.4] not getting paid to work moms.
[1732.3] I'm paid working on all me, working on you.
[1734.9] for said, yes. So is there any similarity or common thread that you've seen throughout for women
[1742.2] in all of these positions? Is there any common trend that you've identified?
[1746.8] Well, something that we touched on a little bit earlier, like we're socialized, most of us
[1753.5] are socialized to be accommodating and to be helpful and to be perfectionistic. So it really
[1762.0] kind of forces us to over index on those traits because the praise feels great.
[1770.9] Receiving all those at a girls and like high-five, like it feels really great. So
[1776.6] we over index there and it often means we under index on self-investment. That is well-being and self-care,
[1786.1] that is learning in growth, that is interests and fun.
[1790.0] You know, all of the things that help make us feel great and feel well-rounded and help us
[1796.8] frankly nurture our ambition and nurture our growth. Because if you're just drowning in like,
[1804.5] again, cleaning the counters, picking up the legos, doing the diapers,
[1808.3] scheduling the camp forms, like if you're just drowning in that stuff and then at work,
[1813.5] you're tactically going from project to project to project to email to project.
[1819.7] It doesn't give you the space to be your most expansive leadership self.
[1826.9] And we need the space to be able to inhabit that version of ourselves.
[1832.8] So you have to take some of the little things off your plate.
[1837.3] Now I realize that's hard.
[1838.8] Yeah.
[1839.6] But there's lots of ways to do it at work.
[1841.7] Some of it is through group advocacy.
[1844.5] You may not have the psychological safety
[1846.4] to set a boundary for yourself.
[1848.2] But maybe as a team, you can all advocate
[1851.5] for a different deadline.
[1853.2] Or the employee resource group of parents or caregivers
[1857.0] might help you negotiate the fact
[1859.5] that the staff meeting is always
[1860.9] during pickup or drop off or something to that effect.
[1864.1] So find your path to get work off your plate.
[1867.7] That's my whole second section of repair with self care.
[1870.8] And I can't read to read this.
[1872.2] Yeah.
[1873.1] The whole book section two is easier workload.
[1876.5] And that's at home.
[1879.4] That's everywhere.
[1881.0] Because frankly, we have to do less
[1884.9] to be able to put energy toward the right things
[1888.5] and to be able to have space in between activities
[1891.9] and commitments.
[1893.1] Yes.
[1894.0] I think I'm going to buy a hat that says do less.
[1896.9] because if you do less, it comes out so much better.
[1901.9] I'm gonna get some merch.
[1904.2] It does.
[1905.2] And it's like, and we go through periods of our life
[1907.5] where everything's on fire and you'd, oh yeah, right?
[1911.0] There's times like everything's on fire.
[1913.0] You can't do it.
[1914.1] Something's wrong with the kids.
[1915.3] Something's wrong with your own health, right?
[1918.4] There are those moments, but if you have this
[1921.1] intentional focus on reducing your workload
[1924.9] Yeah. And making sure the other people in your life are starting to support you in that.
[1929.7] That helps.
[1931.6] It's not immediate, but it helps.
[1934.7] Yes. Yes. I really, I love that. And then age where in marketing, especially, we're hearing
[1940.8] do more with less day in, day out. Anything that is pushing me towards doing less, I embrace.
[1948.2] Absolutely. And as a leader, like, there might be that incredible woman on your
[1954.6] team who hasn't had all the experience yet. But she is hungry to grow and she wants that promotion.
[1962.0] Like you might be able to say to whoever, you know what? I know I've been attending these
[1967.7] meetings every week for the past however many years. But wow, I have a rock star on my team
[1973.3] who is ready. And I would like her to attend the next couple. And then let's talk about it.
[1979.2] I think she can report back to me. She gets to be at the table with other leaders and she gets to
[1986.2] contribute in a new way. And frankly, I will use that extra hour of prep and hour of meeting time
[1993.2] that I get back to do the next strategic thing that's even more important. So like be comfortable
[2001.7] suggesting because it's both advocating for someone else on your team. Exactly. And it's giving
[2007.6] you space to free up. I read a book and have interviewed the author Daisy Augur, Dominguez,
[2014.6] she wrote burnt out to lit up, which is a really about kind of like manager burnout.
[2019.5] So I love that. Right. So like, and when I interviewed her, she talked a lot about delegation.
[2025.9] And again, I think because we're so conditioned to just do it yourself, just work harder,
[2031.7] bringing yourself to actually give other people on your team meaningful work and a clear
[2038.1] enough picture of your objectives so that they can meaningfully take the work over is often underutilized.
[2046.2] So true. And I love the ability that you mentioned of being able to bring someone else,
[2052.1] especially if it's a woman, into the table, into the fold and get them that seat and that
[2057.9] attention, right, that focus, that proof that they are really great at what they're doing.
[2063.7] That helps not just you by alleviating some of your tasks, but it helps them shine.
[2069.4] I love that.
[2070.5] Uh, you also mentioned a few times psychological safety.
[2074.2] So I want to dive into that before we wrap up.
[2076.7] You've helped companies design management training, things like that around burnout, psychological
[2082.3] safety.
[2083.5] What is the number one thing?
[2085.5] If you were to give advice, I know it always depends, but what is one thing that we can
[2090.5] all do today?
[2091.9] We're soon to help improve that environment and the psychological safety of our team.
[2097.8] I think an underutilized strategy that I share often is being really faithful to holding
[2103.6] one on ones with your direct reports.
[2106.9] You'd be surprised how many managers abandon one on ones when they're busy, when things
[2112.0] are just, it's like the first thing to go.
[2114.9] But it turns out that people will not confide in you about their struggles unless you are one-on-one.
[2123.3] They're not going to tell you in a group meeting, they're certainly not going to tell you in an email.
[2127.1] And if someone's disengaged, like I've had employees over, I mean, I've managed people in corporate settings for over 20 years.
[2134.7] So I have people who had high risk pregnancies who needed extra space and time for appointments.
[2141.0] I've had an employee with a terminally ill spouse who needed a lot of support, but she didn't
[2147.7] want it to be visible to others right away.
[2150.1] Yeah.
[2151.1] I've had bipolar employees, employees who've had to be hospital.
[2154.5] Like people have things happening in their lives and humans and they'll share it with you
[2161.9] and you can help them problem solve or avail themselves of benefits or resources only if
[2168.2] If you created a container where they can have that conversation with you and it's not going
[2173.1] to be in a group meeting.
[2174.1] So I encourage leaders to keep those one-on-ones on the calendar.
[2179.7] Even if they're scheduled to get point.
[2181.9] Yeah.
[2182.9] Oh, true.
[2183.9] Because I know we all love canceling meetings, right?
[2186.6] If we can get rid of a meeting on our calendar, we're like, ah, like free time.
[2190.6] I think we can actually do something and attack that to-do list.
[2194.9] But you're right.
[2195.9] ones are the first to go. And I see it more frequently as people move up, right? So it as they move
[2203.3] up to the leadership team, executive team, the one to ones tend to get more infrequent.
[2209.6] Is do you see that as well? Or is that just like subjective? No, I agree. Yeah, I think that that
[2216.7] becomes also frankly people internalize that. It's like, oh, my manager's not spending as much
[2222.1] time with me, my manager must not think time with me as important as it once was, or my manager
[2229.4] doesn't see me in the way they used to see me. Right? People interpret the messages that
[2235.9] receiving in lots of different ways and the only way to ensure that there's transparency and
[2243.5] alignment is to have conversations. And even it's okay to say, wow, it's been
[2249.8] Conference season hands. Yeah, I've been to you know a lot of events in the past quarter
[2256.0] And I realized that's impacted the cadence of our one on ones and a not happy about that
[2261.5] And it wasn't intentional. Yeah, address it. It wasn't intentional. It's not about you
[2267.8] What I am gonna do however is make sure that they're back on the calendar and even if I'm traveling
[2273.8] Maybe we do like a 15 minute check-in and by phone, right?
[2279.1] we're at least touch base on critical things.
[2282.3] I also tell managers start the one on one
[2284.2] by asking people how they're doing.
[2286.1] Yeah.
[2287.7] I agree.
[2288.5] Just launch them into it.
[2290.3] But don't launch into the business,
[2292.0] like find out how they're doing.
[2294.5] Making people are their craving connection,
[2298.5] their craving spaces where they feel like they belong.
[2303.2] And people are feeling less and less visible,
[2306.5] especially a lot of women people
[2308.0] are feeling less and less visible.
[2310.4] And so having that, again, container at work
[2315.0] where someone feels like they can be their most excellent,
[2318.2] but they can also be vulnerable.
[2319.9] They can also still be a student and a learner
[2322.2] while they're also developing skills.
[2324.6] It's really huge and it's powerful for people.
[2328.0] So true.
[2329.2] And words matter.
[2330.9] So when you mentioned this starting a one-to-one
[2333.5] with the question asking how they're doing,
[2336.0] again embracing the human side of things.
[2338.9] I remember a form manager of mine way back used to
[2342.1] at like start our one twins with what's going on.
[2346.3] And that was the opposite.
[2347.8] Like I think it was intended to be what you're saying,
[2350.8] right? And checking in with me, but I took it as,
[2352.8] oh, like this is going on and I'm doing this.
[2355.1] And it felt like a fire drill.
[2357.3] And I had to report everything.
[2358.7] Like I don't know, gave me that urgency
[2361.1] and right away work, but I think he intended it
[2363.8] to be checking in on me.
[2365.6] So choose your words wisely.
[2367.8] And I think how are you doing is so much more warm.
[2372.2] Isn't it more important?
[2373.9] It's calmer.
[2375.2] Also, sometimes if you feel like there's friction,
[2378.3] I think I may share one of these,
[2379.9] I might have shared some example of this in the book,
[2382.3] but I had a leader where it became clear to me
[2386.1] within a few months,
[2387.1] like she wasn't reading the status reports I was writing.
[2390.1] Like I was just writing, you know, kind of a writer
[2392.2] and I'm just elaborate and long and detailed
[2395.3] Oh, look, look, look, look, and they all these things and I'm right cross reference.
[2398.6] I knew she was looking at it because we'd come into our one on ones and it was clear
[2403.3] she hadn't read anything I'd sent her.
[2405.5] So I finally kind of like mustard up the courage to say, hey, I don't want to over
[2411.7] communicate or under communicate with you.
[2414.5] I realize your time is really valuable.
[2417.4] It's not clear to me that the current status report is working for you and for I to
[2423.7] like how do you like to receive information?
[2427.7] Do you even want a status report?
[2429.9] Would it be better for me to leave a voice note?
[2432.5] What do you need?
[2433.6] So I opened it up and it was a really fruitful,
[2436.5] like she responded really well to it,
[2438.9] but I was nervous to ask.
[2440.6] Yeah.
[2441.5] Cause it just felt like the rule,
[2443.2] the rule is you do a weekly status report.
[2445.5] Even if it's not like that.
[2446.9] Even if it's an online set.
[2448.8] If it's a time suck,
[2450.3] I was so happy to adjust it.
[2453.0] because she really didn't want something that long form.
[2455.9] Mm-hmm.
[2456.9] Always at, see, I feel like so many of the world problems
[2460.9] could be solved by open honest communication.
[2465.4] And just caring about each other and checking in.
[2469.0] If we had more of that everywhere,
[2470.5] we'd be in a much better place.
[2472.3] It's a basic, basic humanity, yes.
[2474.9] Right?
[2475.9] It's so crazy.
[2477.5] Like, why can't I say this to my husband all the time?
[2479.9] I'm like, why can't everyone just be a good person?
[2483.0] Yeah. Oh yeah. It's, ooh, that's a good question.
[2487.1] There's a lot underneath that.
[2490.1] We could talk about that one for a while.
[2491.9] Yes, next episode.
[2494.2] Well Leslie, this has been amazing.
[2496.2] You made me if it's even possible,
[2498.3] want to read your book even more
[2500.3] than I did before we started.
[2501.7] So I will link to that in comments.
[2504.0] And I will show you the order of seat after this call.
[2507.1] But if one last question to end with,
[2509.6] if you could go back in time to little Leslie,
[2512.7] just starting out telemarketing.
[2514.9] What would you tell her knowing all that you know now?
[2518.3] Oh, I would have told her that taking time to care
[2521.8] for herself is part of growth.
[2526.0] Because I was so ambitious and focused
[2528.4] on growth growth growth and frankly stability,
[2531.5] right? I was looking for financial stability.
[2534.2] And I just equated that with overwork.
[2537.0] And if I had told myself then, you know what?
[2541.2] keep dancing, keep writing for fun,
[2544.2] keep doing all those things that you love
[2547.0] because they actually make you a more powerful
[2551.5] and authentic and happier leader over time.
[2556.7] And frankly, someone who generates more innovative ideas.
[2560.9] So I wish I had known that back then.
[2565.2] Like you can be driven,
[2567.1] but what helps you get driven is finding what lights you up,
[2570.0] it gives you that calm and leaning in towards that,
[2573.8] doing more of that.
[2575.4] I'm not percent.
[2576.5] Because I burned out even before I had kids,
[2579.2] I had my first major episode of burnout,
[2582.1] and it was because of the style
[2585.2] in which I was accustomed to working.
[2588.3] Yeah, that oh, I bet you have big feelings
[2591.1] on the 996 that trend that's going on around now.
[2594.7] So I had not heard about this.
[2596.8] Oh, so nice.
[2599.1] It's nine working nine to nine six days a week.
[2603.8] Oh dear.
[2605.0] Yeah, I mean, I did that.
[2607.8] Yeah, it was not, it was not.
[2610.1] And then my attention.
[2611.8] Ryan, I did that, but it's,
[2613.7] you don't feel good after a while.
[2616.6] It's not a sustainable way of working.
[2619.2] Yeah.
[2620.1] So I think sustainability far outpaces
[2624.7] or exceeds the benefits of a short,
[2627.9] energetic burst of intense work.
[2630.9] Depending on what kind of work you do,
[2633.6] yeah, you need the ability,
[2636.3] especially in modern work,
[2638.1] being able to think about what you're doing
[2640.8] and provide this context,
[2643.0] is just as critical as crank and stuff out.
[2645.9] Yes, room for strategy.
[2648.2] And those ideas to come in.
[2650.3] Agreed.
[2651.5] We could talk forever.
[2652.5] Maybe we'll have a whole another episode on 996 one day.
[2655.5] Yeah.
[2656.5] Thank you so much for joining Leslie.
[2659.5] Where is the best place for everyone to connect with you?
[2662.5] Momshirekiveneeds.com.
[2665.5] It's like we're all the information is all the resources for moms.
[2669.5] I have a wellness app, time chat.
[2671.5] There's information about the book, tons of articles, join the newsletter.
[2675.5] And if you're an employer and leader, that's also where all the employer services information is too.
[2681.5] Perfect. Thank you so much. I appreciate it for every listener connect with Leslie
[2687.7] By her book because it's amazing. I already know just from this conversation and I'll put all the notes
[2693.5] The links in in show notes so share with the friends rate review get us in front of even more women
[2699.1] So thank you everyone
[2701.1] Bye-bye